Great cities are multi-faceted, and Sudhir Venkatesh, a sociology professor at Columbia, sets out to record their darker sides. After publishing his award-winning book Gang Leader for a Day, which exposes gang life in Chicago, Venkatesh turned his attention to New York for his new book, Floating City: A Rogue Sociologist Lost and Found in New York’s Underground Economy. QIUYUN TAN talked with Professor Venkatesh about his past work and his investigation of the hidden parts of New York.

What was your hypothesis on the underground economy in New York before taking up this investigation? What surprised you the most from your investigation?

I had a very Chicago-centric view of cities. Meaning, I thought that neighborhoods were the most important determinant of quality of life, as it would be in Chicago. But New Yorkers are mobile, on the move, and ferociously so.

You have also done research on Chicago’s underground economy. What do you think is the biggest difference between the underground economies of these two cities?

Chicago’s underground economies are organized in hierarchies—like McDonald’s or IBM. Shut your mouth, do as you’re told, and in 60 years, we will give you a gold watch and a handshake. Meanwhile, the robber barons at the top take the gold. In New York, the primary aim is to kill the robber barons, become one yourself ... and try to stay alive.

What is the most memorable or controversial story that you heard during your investigation? Was there anything that upset you?

Watching immigrants become wrapped up in violent black markets, when they expected to have a life in the suburbs with a lawn and a two-car garage. That was extremely upsetting. When people come to this country for a decent life, and they end up in trouble—living on the edge—it’s hard to believe in the American Dream.

What are your interactions with the interview subjects like? Did you try to stay more or less detached from their personal lives? Did they see you as an outsider?

It may sound nitpicky, but I don’t use interviews as my primary mode of gathering data. I use them on occasion, but mostly to show people how uncomfortable our interactions would be if I acted like a journalist and left them after an hour. They get it. Instead, I try to stay as close to them as possible. But never for an instant do I tell them I’m their friend, confidante, etc. I tell them my research question—and, if they buy into the premise, then we are going to stay together for a few years. If they don’t, then I never pressure them to let me observe.

You have said that you do not want to be labeled as a serious academic, nor a journalist. What role do you see sociology theories playing in your process of investigation and storytelling?

I’ve never said that. I’m not sure where you read that. I’m an academic—a sociologist. I’m not a journalist. I rely on the scientific method. But ... unlike the mainstream of my discipline, I believe that the emotional and intellectual registers are not far apart. Meaning, you can transmit ideas and understand ideas as you “feel” ideas.

Some reviews say that your writings are morally ambiguous. How do you deal with morality when writing about such “perverse” subject matters? How do your experiences from investigating affect the way you understand morality and humanity?

It’s tough to answer this question. It’s a bit like, “Have you stopped beating your wife?” If you call what I study “perverse,” then I don’t have a lot of choices viz. my answer: I’m on the defensive. Know what I mean? Either I can say, “Well, I try to give voice to the voiceless...” Yes, that’s true. Or, I can say, “What right do you have to call something perverse? I bet I could find something in your life that’s perverse...” Either way, I look like I’m angry and vengeful. The best answer I can give is that I don’t make moral judgments in my work as a sociologist. That’s not my job. My job is to understand how people try to live according to particular moralities that they hold. They don’t always come close, and they fail—just like you and me. But, nearly everyone I have met tries to live according to some ideals of the good and just life.

Has the publication of this book affected the lives of your interview subjects? Did you hope that the book would have any impact on the underground economy in the long term?

I don’t keep in touch with people once my study is over. I hope that people will look at New York from the perspective of the alleyways, not just the skyscrapers—particularly students. I hope, in some modest way, this book encourages Columbia/Barnard students to discover the untold stories in the city.

What will be your next research subject?

I’m writing a book on advertising.