News | Student Life

Anti-ROTC coalition holds own discussion

On the eve of the third schoolwide ROTC town hall, the Coalition Against ROTC at Columbia struck back Tuesday night.

At a panel discussion hosted by the newly formed coalition, professors and students laid out their arguments against ROTC’s return, in light of recent media coverage that they felt inaccurately portrayed them as rude and unpatriotic.

The exclusively anti-ROTC environment was necessary, coalition member Feride Eralp said, because the town halls “do not provide a safe space” to discuss ROTC’s return.

“We feel that the administration is biased in favour of ROTC, and that we cannot discuss our opinions without being portrayed as being unpatriotic or harassing veterans,” Eralp, CC ’14, said.

From her seat on the stage of the packed Mathematics lecture hall, Sumayya Kassamali, GSAS, who helped organize the event, said it was important to set the record straight following a widely circulated New York Post article that accused Columbia students of heckling an army veteran after he spoke in favor of ROTC at last week’s town hall.

“I want to talk instead on what the debates on campus have revealed, something that I find profoundly sad, which is the lack of space for any criticism of the military,” Kassamali said as she began her statement, drawing murmurs of approval from the otherwise quiet audience.

Daniela Garcia, CC ’11 and a panelist, detailed how she has been harassed by national media reporters since the Post’s story.

“We had a snowball thrown at us,” she said, noting that people asking her why she doesn’t support the military are asking the wrong questions.

“There’s a difference between military and militarism,” she said. “I don’t think any of the people I’m working with are advocating getting rid of the military at this time.”

Panelists also expressed concerns with the way the campus discussion has unfolded, claiming that the University Senate is trying to hurry the process, and that members have not been transparent about their decision-making.

Rosalind Morris, professor of anthropology and a panelist, said that students could benefit from more specifics on the ROTC program, and that having a military program on campus would signify a “symbolic transformation of the university.”

“Research and education—that is what a university is for,” Morris said. “The logic of the military should be pursued by the military, but not on campus. I am happy to have veterans in class. I am happy to have members of the military in the class when they are there as students, that is, not as soldiers.”

Fellow panelist Elizabeth Blackmar, a professor of history, agreed, saying that the anti-ROTC position is based on an aversion to institutionalizing the military at an independent university.

“I think there’s been this really big push to separate the issue of war and ROTC, which I don’t personally understand because the ROTC is a recruiting arm of the military,” Garcia said, disagreeing with a Spectator editorial that portrayed the return of ROTC as separate from ideological objections to war and the military.

“They show it as a neutral educational program, when obviously the main educational program of ROTC is to train soldiers to wage war,” she said.

Kassamali noted that Columbia already has ties to the military, such as labs for defense research and West Point lecturers with visiting professorships.

“I am fully aware of their entrenchment at Columbia,” she said, calling the debate a way to open up the issue of Columbia’s overall association to the military.

Blackmar also said that she took particular offense at suggestions in the Spectator editorial that inviting ROTC back will increase the economic diversity on campus and give students an opportunity to foster tolerance in the military.

“The military does not exist to foster tolerance to people of different lifestyles, it serves to defend the nation,” Blackmar said, adding that increasing economic diversity in the student body is the role of the administration and the idea that Columbia students could increase tolerance within the military is “condescending.”

Advocates for ROTC’s return also attended the discussion, including Learned Foote, CC ’11 and Columbia College Student Council president, who said he enjoyed hearing the arguments.

“I think what’s essential to note is that students who participate in ROTC are not barred in their participation from the Columbia educational experience, so I don’t think that there is a conflict between the ROTC education and the Columbia education,” Foote said.

The panel “highlights how little both sides know about each other and how much more dialogue is needed about what it means to have an ROTC program outside of the Senate hearings,” said University senator and veteran Jose Robledo, GS, in an email.

The third and final University Senate hearing will take place tonight.

Finn Vigeland contributed reporting.

chelsea.lo@columbiaspectator.com

Comments

Plain text

  • Lines and paragraphs break automatically.
Your username will not be displayed if checked
CAPTCHA
This question is for testing whether or not you are a human visitor and to prevent automated spam submissions.
Anonymous posted on

achat kamagra en ligne - kamagra sans ordonnance , http://acheterkamagraici.com/#kbkhp kamagra generique

+1
-27
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://badcreditloanstexashere.com/#vhrbq]bad credit payday loans[/url] - payday loans online , http://badcreditloanstexashere.com/#bplob payday loan online new mexico

+1
-25
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://1000paydayloanhere.com/#hddae]payday loans Illinois[/url] - payday loans Illinois , http://1000paydayloanhere.com/#tnkut payday loan utah

+1
-22
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://zithromaxwithoutprescriptionhere.com/#unzxo]cheap zithromax online[/url] - zithromax online , http://zithromaxwithoutprescriptionhere.com/#xnsvj buy cheap zithromax

+1
-25
-1
Anonymous posted on

advance payday loans California - payday loans , http://fastcashloanscaliforniahere.com/#kfutc payday loans

+1
-28
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://instantloanssamedayhere.com/#kezed]payday loans[/url] - instant payday loan , http://instantloanssamedayhere.com/#mmcyy payday loan

+1
-28
-1
Anonymous posted on

direct lender payday loans - payday loans online , http://directlenderloansnocheckhere.com/#tjbqk direct lender payday loans

+1
-25
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://propeciawithoutprescriptionherenow.com /#vidwd]propecia online[/url] - buy propecia online , http://propeciawithoutprescriptionherenow.com /#tdaog order propecia

+1
-26
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://levitrawithoutprescriptionhere.com/#ecgkp]levitra without prescription[/url] - buy levitra online , http://levitrawithoutprescriptionhere.com/#muowy buy levitra

+1
-27
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://levitrawithoutprescriptionhere.com/#wlydo]cheap levitra online[/url] - order levitra , http://levitrawithoutprescriptionhere.com/#fvihz buy generic levitra

+1
-22
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://cashloanstodayhere.com/#epbna]cash advance[/url] - cash today , http://cashloanstodayhere.com/#erolc cash advance

+1
-23
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://cialiswithoutprescriptionhere.com/#igror]cialis without prescription[/url] - cialis 40 mg , http://cialiswithoutprescriptionhere.com/#empua buy cialis online

+1
-26
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://priligywithoutprescriptionhere.com/#kwxpi]priligy 150 mg[/url] - cheap generic priligy , http://priligywithoutprescriptionhere.com/#jkcph priligy 50 mg

+1
-24
-1
Anonymous posted on

[url=http://viagrawithoutprescriptionhere.com/#zjauq]viagra 25 mg[/url] - viagra 25 mg , http://viagrawithoutprescriptionhere.com/#pbjle viagra 50 mg

+1
-28
-1
Anonymous posted on

I think there is plenty of space for criticism of the military on campus, and for these folks to be acting like they are the ones being persecuted is kind of silly. Every single person who expressed an anti-ROTC opinion was received politely. There were no instances of jeering or heckling on the part of the pro-ROTC crowd. And I'm not saying everyone who is opposed to ROTC was rude at the last town hall - almost all of them were equally polite. A handful of students behaved inappropriately, but for the most part it was a civil and thoughtful town hall.

But these students and faculty have no basis for pretending that their opinions have been treated with hostility or rudeness - that simply has not been the case.

+1
-16
-1
Anonymous posted on

On second thought, I guess the entire Columbia community has been treated with hostility and rudeness by the national media. So if that's what they were trying to get away from, I understand that.

I guess I was just bothered by the comment that town halls are "not a safe space" for anti-ROTC students. The debate has been almost completely civil and for someone to say something like that just reinforces the idea that our campus is somehow boiling over with anger and hatred.

+1
-17
-1
Anonymous posted on

Yeah, even though I'm an anti-ROTC person, I thought that comment was a bit silly. The town halls have been pretty fair in terms of allowing everyone to express their opinion. On the other hand, the coverage that we've gotten from the national media is/was some bullshit.

+1
-21
-1
Anonymous posted on

So the people shouting racist at Anthony Maschek are being treated unfairly?

+1
-23
-1
Anonymous posted on

Those anthropology trolls heckled a war veteran, if they are anti-ROTC then fine, it is when the little nut job anthro-trolls couldn't control themselves which lead to the backlash. The lack of condemnation of the hecklers by the anti-ROTC crowd also did not help their cause

+1
-17
-1
Aleric posted on

"The lack of condemnation of the hecklers by the anti-ROTC crowd also did not help their cause"

Mainly because they agreed with the more vocal of their groups. It says a lot about people who allow the more violent and distasteful of their group to set the tone for the discussion. But the radical Left has hijacked the Liberal causes and are the true face of opposition these days.

+1
-18
-1
Stephen Snowder posted on

Well, I am monopolizing the comments here I see; that is just one of the many privileges one receives as a result of being awake and reading the Spec at four in the morning. I'll shut up after this, but it just occurred to me that I personally would be more inclined to be civil and respectful if my full name were attached to my comments on this debate (not that I think I've been rude or uncivil so far). So I signed up for Disqus and now you can see who I am. If I say something stupid or offensive you can call me out on my facebook, which should be linked to my name (I think).

It seems like if we all did this we'd probably see a lot fewer comments along the lines of "u r stupid" and "we should drop all these anti-ROTC peeple in Irack and afganistan and see how Al Kida likes them!" (misspellings intentional and hopefully funny (it's not funny if you have to explain it, you idiot! (shut up internal monologue! (you use parentheses too much! (shut up!))))). Just a thought.

+1
-20
-1
John D posted on

So you fools rail and protest against the military when it is those very people whose sacrifices and dedication make it possible for you to protest at all? You all make me sick, you useless puke.

+1
-19
-1
Anonymous posted on

Yea, use your full name so the liberal nut jobs can stage a code pink rally at your front door. Liberals typically don't have jobs they have to be at (Wisconsin protests) so they can just pack up at a moments notice and camp out to protest anywhere. Who would subject themselves to that?

+1
-20
-1
Anonymous posted on

awwwhhh poor misunderstood, victimized Columbia and it's students so villified by the national media. There Columbia feel better now?? Let's look at facts.

1. Columbia banned ROTC

2. Pro ROTC students have been heckled, harrassed, villified, at Columbia

3. The students AND Professors at Columbia by and large hold antimilitary, anti ROTC, anti Veteran views fosted in large part by the stereotypical portrayal of the military in movies, popular culture, their elitist parents, friends, and others who came of age during the Vietnam Conflict

4. Most students at Columbia have no concept of the military, military culture, military rules and regulations or ANYTHING MILITARY by virtue of having never served, but for some reason expect the rest of society to believe they are somehow experts on all things military by virtue of the "elitist college education"

5. A Veteran of the Military WAS heckled, jeered and put down by STUDENTS who attend your university and are immersed in an antimilitary culture.

These are the FACTS of the case, so sorry Columbia you will not garner sympathy from myself or most other veterans who are not afraid to call a spade a spade no matter how much you wish to play the victim angle to take the onus away from the facted YOU F'd up big time in the treatment of this Veteran at this time.

+1
-21
-1
Stephen Snowder posted on

So I'm seriously logging off in a second, and I'm past the point where I think these types of ill-informed comments still deserve response, but what the heck, I'm procrastinating on writing a paper.

Pritro454: your "FACTS," as you call them, don't actually meet the definition of the word "facts." Before I get started on dismantling your entire "argument," I just want to say (again) up front that I am an Army veteran, I served in Iraq, and I support the return of ROTC to campus. Now let's do this.

1. You win on this point. Columbia did ban ROTC.

2. This is completely not true. ONE student was heckled for a total of about four seconds before the moderator put a stop to it. The hecklers totaled maybe three to five people in the audience of over two hundred. Every other person, without exception, veterans included, who spoke at that town hall in favor of ROTC's return was received respectfully. Even the anti-ROTC groups on campus have acknowledged that the heckling of that one student was inappropriate. Pro-ROTC students are not routinely jeered at or heckled. This "FACT," is in fact a fiction.

3. The students AND professors at Columbia are by and large extremely supportive of the military and of veterans, whatever their views on the war and certain military policies may be. As I have said elsewhere, students I don't even know - including students who are deeply opposed to our ongoing wars - have stopped me to thank me for my service. Professors have gone out of their way to make accommodations for me when I've had to miss class due to military training. Columbia has more veterans in its student body than the entire rest of the Ivy League combined, and the school fully participates in the Yellow Ribbon Program so all veterans can go here for free. The official group that represents military veterans in the student body here, the CU MilVets, issued a press release saying exactly the same thing. You can read that press release here (http://bit.ly/f4XLtK). So this is another fact that you get just plain wrong.

4. Most students probably do not have much of a concept of the military - I will grant you this point. That doesn't mean they don't respect the military and the people who serve. Most of them do.

5. A veteran was heckled by "STUDENTS," as you write in all caps for some reason. Again, this heckling was conducted by at most five students out of an audience of over two hundred and it was stopped IMMEDIATELY (I can use all caps too). And, as I have already demonstrated, the Columbia culture is not anti-military.

No one was more disturbed by "Hecklegate" (I want it on the record that I coined that term) than I was, but I recognize that it was the behavior of a handful of fringe students and not representative of the people I sit in class with every day. I don't expect you to know this since you don't go to school here - but I hope you will take my word for it since I have experience and can tell you these things first-hand. Thanks!

+1
-21
-1
Anonymous posted on

Hahaha. I see the Tea Party has managed to bumble its way onto the Columbia Spectator website, probably by way of some ridiculous Fox "News" "article" about us.

Please go away.

+1
-19
-1
John D posted on

Yeah, you'd like us to go away wouldn't you, Too bad, you little Marxist fool.

+1
-16
-1
Anonymous posted on

Oh please, please, please, I don't want to go away, I want to be part of your liberal transgender community, I am so jealous. Don't kid yourself.

+1
-19
-1
Anonymous posted on

Please go to Starbucks and get you fix

+1
-19
-1
Anonymous posted on

Let me make it easy for you Columbia

To the public, military veterans, and military at large:

Recently on our campus we had a much heated debate on whether ROTC should be allowed to return to our Campus. Some students, whom obviously don't have manners and didn't realize that public forums are for adults, spoke out of turn and disparaged and heckled a decorated injured veteran of our nations wars.

We at Columbia were deeply offended and apalled by our students actions and as a university would like to take this opportunity to APOLOGIZE for these student's behavior. Rest assured such outbursts are not the norm at Columbia and we are deeply hurt that the public would assume they are.

While the military and Columbia have not always seen eye to eye realize that we are trying to amend the rift created between two uniquely American institutions that occured before many of today's students were born.

Again the school apologizes for the actions of our students. Rest assured the students have been identified and a public apology will be forthcoming from them.

See it is called an APOLOGY and is fairly simple of course it means setting aside your preconceived notions that the "elite should never apologize to the masses" but sometimes it is necessary

+1
-15
-1
Anonymous posted on

oh shut up! seriously. there is no reason on earth we should apologise to you, the"nation" or anyone else for that matter. someone expressed views, people laughed. it lasted 6 seconds. everyone here jumped on them. it is done. let me put it on the record that none of us here give a damn about what anyone nutter with two minutes and an internet connection thinks of us, our peers or our institution. we are perfectly capable of having this important conversation amongst ourselves, which we are doing through structures we have created for ourselves as a community. none of us cares whether you hire us or not, buy from us or not, love us or not.

+1
-18
-1
Anonymous posted on

How long does a larvae stay in the cocoon?

+1
-13
-1
Anonymous posted on

The same people who heckled are the people who organized this event. Not all anti-ROTC people demonstrate a lack of civility, but WE OPPOSE ROTC does not have grounds to complain about the lack of a safe space on campus.

+1
-17
-1
Anonymous posted on

The logic of the anti-ROTC contingent of faculty and students seems obvious and ideologically driven. The comment about "getting rid of the military *at this time*" really brings to light the group's goals.

I also find the comment about symbolism very telling. The group believes that scholarship excludes the civics and political understanding of the role of the military in society except in simplistic (it's bad) terms.

It is a shame that the close minded ideology and passions of this group has reinforced the image of Columbia as an symbol of anti-military institutionalism.

Hopefully, Columbia will invite ROTC back on campus and end this exclusionary practice.

+1
-20
-1
Anonymous posted on

what do you mean by ideology? Do you think that the military is somehow free of ideology? Its not a question of yes/no... it's a question of quality ... what is the value of your ideas?

+1
-18
-1
Anonymous posted on

it is clear this group believes that its ideas are superior to the ideas that are taught in ROTC, and in fact, the ideas in the ROTC curriculum shoul not be allowed to be taught on Columbia's campus. It is obvious that this belief is based on a value judgement of the military.

This value judgement of ideological superiority results in a "No" because tolerating such ideas is offensive.

+1
-20
-1
Anonymous posted on

"“Research and education—that is what a university is for,” Morris said."

From CU mission, shortened: Columbia University is ... a distinctive and distinguished learning environment for undergraduates and graduate students in many scholarly and PROFESSIONAL fields.

I don't know how much original research ROTC does, but ROTC is very much about education. The program is meant to be an interactive civil-military learning resource, not just an officer program. ROTC will enrich Columbia's learning environment for all students, not only aspiring military leaders. Moreover, a full range of ideas and viewpoints on campus is essential for advocates who believe healthy intellectual friction will make intellectually agile Columbia officers through a diverse educational experience.

+1
-18
-1
Anonymous posted on

This is a great article.

The Task Force that was set up is biased in favor of ROTC. This has been obvious from the beginning. To invite Dean Moody-Adams to speak in favor of ROTC at a "neutral" space like the Town Hall was ridiculous.

Moreover, the Task Force's website posted the article from the Post which was obviously in favor of ROTC. Not only that, but it attacked the opposing side.

+1
-19
-1
Anonymous posted on

Here here!

+1
-16
-1
Anonymous posted on

WORD.

+1
-12
-1
Anonymous posted on

agreed completely.

+1
-9
-1
Anonymous posted on

dean moody-adams' phrasing was regrettable, but i think it's a stretch to say that her words affected the tenor of the debate. everyone who wanted to speak was allowed to and there were probably more anti-ROTC people speaking than pro. people were polite and respectful during the entire meeting and i personally felt that there was some fascinating discussion going on. i, for one, have been incredibly impressed with the organizational skills and professionalism of this task force and will be satisfied with the result no matter which way it goes.

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

Message for defensive students from an admittedly defensive grad: this national outcry reflects Columbia's importance to the country. For those of us now on the outside looking, it makes sense to consider the ROTC question in this light: ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.

It matters.

+1
-6
-1
Anonymous posted on

The national outcry reflects the outrage of a wounded veteran being heckled.

+1
+2
-1
Anonymous posted on

The national outcry would be absent if it were an isolated event by a few hecklers. Instead, it is falling on fertile ground: controversies over Achmadinejad, Ann Coulter, David Horowitz, etal. leave a widespread belief in Columbia's narrowmindedness, so this incident fits a pattern.

I quote from Horowitz:

In the half century since I graduated, this is the first time that I have been invited to an official Columbia function, and even so the occasion is an alumni reunion, not a formal academic event. This exclusion has occurred despite the fact that I am the well-known author of many books, several concerned with university reform; and despite the fact that my son who is also a Columbia alumni has donated a generous scholarship fund to the college for minority students; or that my grand-daughter is currently a Columbia student, so that we are in a manner of speaking a Columbia family. Evidently, I have been more loyal to Columbia than Columbia has been to me. Even the invitation to this alumni function had to be sustained against a strenuous resistance by some of my classmates who are professors now at other schools and are apparently of the opinion that my views should be suppressed.

And this attitude of exclusion is a prevailing one among current Columbia faculty. So far as I can ascertain, there is not a single prominent conservative intellectual on Columbia’s liberal arts faculty today. The dozen or so books I have written, like those of other well-known conservatives, though widely praised and highly regarded in the world outside Columbia, are more effectively banned in its classrooms than were the books of Marxists fifty years ago, during the height of the McCarthy era.

http://archive.frontpagemag.co...

The world thinks of Columbia as a leftist stronghold, so the symbolism of a veteran being heckled fits a narrative.

+1
-1
-1
Anonymous posted on

This isnt a great article its a summary of who said what. And I find Blackmar who had perhaps the most substantial things to say, highly underrepresented here.

+1
-1
-1
Anonymous posted on

“The logic of the military should be pursued by the military, but not on campus"
Honest question--seriously, not trying to harass anyone, but what does this actually mean?

+1
-1
-1
Anonymous posted on

What don't you understand about it? It's a pretty simple statement.

+1
+2
-1
Anonymous posted on

how does military logic differ from civilian logic?

+1
+1
-1
Anonymous posted on

Also, sorry, forgot..."I am happy to have members of the military in the class when they are there as students, that is, not as soldiers.”" Aren't there people who are already on active duty attending Columbia grad programs?

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

Yes, there's an Army major and, I believe, a captain. So I guess those guys would be barred entry to the class.

Yeah, it's pretty insulting to the intelligence. The idea that ROTC cadets in uniform who have never served a day of active duty are in the classroom as "soldiers, not students" is based on a willfully uninformed attitude about what ROTC cadets do.

To military veterans it boggles the mind because ROTC cadets are (no offense to current cadets, some of whom are prior service and know what I'm driving at) viewed as college kids playing soldier. Even if they were a soldier in the meaningful sense, it's flatly immature and, dare I say, bigoted to imply that soldiers who would make it through the Columbia admissions process aren't there to learn, have nothing to add to the debate, or are somehow a threat (physically or intellectually) to anyone else in the room.

What I find really telling is that it came from an Anthropology professor whose discipline is based on participant observation. You'd think they would spend time with the Fordham ROTC cadets or, failing that, just ask one of how they approach their studies as a member of ROTC before, frankly, making stuff up.

Last night made clear to me that they are not interested in knowing anything about ROTC that doesn't jive with their worldview. They claim that the forum was a "safe space," but what that meant in practice was a place to say whatever they want without having to defend those statements on a level playing field (defined as a place where assertions can be challenged back and forth, not as a place where the crowd is split 50/50 on the issue--if your opinion is unpopular, it's not Columbia's responsibility to stack the room with believers for you).

I understand their concerns about personal safety in light of having received death threats and I truly believe that they SHOULD be safe to discuss whatever they want here. And I strongly believe in their right to freedom of expression. Expression, however, is not the same as discussion and it is disingenuous to claim that the anti-ROTC forum constituted a safe place to openly discuss ROTC in a way that the town halls are not. An ROTC cadet sat in front of them last night while they made objectively false implications about how ROTC is administered instead of just asking.

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

"An ROTC cadet sat in front of them last night while they made objectively false implications about how ROTC is administered instead of just asking."

It was expressed over and over and over during the talk that we lack the proper information about what explicitly Columbia ROTC in particular would constitute. In light of this, how can we all be expected to make an informed decision about its return to campus? In fact, I thought that this was one of their strongest arguments. There is so much information that we - the Columbia community as a whole - have not been given. This is the fault of the institution and the way the process has been framed. A lot of the information gaps brought up last night are not of the sort that you could "just ask" about.

+1
+3
-1
Anonymous posted on

"A lot of the information gaps brought up last night are not of the sort that you could "just ask" about."

Yes, they are. "How do you feel about right of students to disagree with each other? How do you reconcile your oath to obey with intellectual freedom? What is your course curriculum? What proportion of your time is spent learning to kill? What is the indoctrination process like? For which courses do you get academic credit?"

I agree that the university should, before the final decision is made, present a specific course curriculum for the senate's approval. And I agree that the university should not be flippant about its formal relationship to organized violence. But the idea that nobody can have any idea what ROTC will look like before then is nonsense. Those interested could google 90% of it if knowing was what this is really about.

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

I take back what I said about Google; it's not consistent with my argument.

But the lack of information in question was mentioned in passing during a speech about philosophical objections to an association between the military and the university. It is disingenuous to claim that it is impossible to know what ROTC would look like. Discussions with ROTC cadets and faculty familiar with the issue would make it clear that it is extremely unlikely that cadets will receive much more than a couple of phys ed credits per semester and that the university can retain reasonable oversight over what is taught and to whom. Without deconstructing Daniela's apparent attitude that map reading and leadership are not worthy of anyone else's attention, classes of purely military import are conducted on the cadets' own time. Again, you could've just asked.

The larger point is that a lack of information is not a reason to be against ROTC, it is an obstacle to making up one's mind about ROTC. It was clear that the minds of the speakers were made up and that new information was unlikely to change that.

+1
0
-1
Sean posted on

Look to any other program on any other campus. Princeton. MIT. Cornell. Duke. Berkeley. All have working, vibrant ROTC programs. Professors, faculty members, and researchers from universities talk to one another on a regular basis. I know I am in constant contact with other universities, including many of those I mentioned. It is in no way difficult to reach out to people on these campuses and find out how ROTC impacts them.

+1
+1
-1
Anonymous posted on

Wikipedia has a fairly good description of each of the service components' ROTC programs. Such programs are pretty uniform over various campuses. Additionally, you can access the descriptions directly from the services here:
http://www.goarmy.com/rotc/col...
http://www.afrotc.com/

Navy site seems to be down bc of an invalid security certificate. God bless DoD IT!

+1
+4
-1
AceofJacks posted on

As much as Wikipedia can be great for priliminary research I think that it is not the greatest souce in this case.

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

“Research and education—that is what a university is for,” Morris said. “The logic of the military should be pursued by the military, but not on campus. I am happy to have veterans in class. I am happy to have members of the military in the class when they are there as students, that is, not as soldiers.”

These statements show just how out of touch with reality some people are. Research and education—that is what a university is for,” Are you serious. To most of the students it is about a degree allowing them to succeed in life. It is also obvious this person has no clue to what ROTC is and how ROTC works. First and for most those students are "students" and part of their "education" is military related. The core courses would be a requirement for them just like everyone else. The degrees that most ROTC students get are not "military". Engineering and Science (pre-med) related degrees would be my guess to what many of those students will leave with. They also would need to meet the stringent admissions standards all students need to get into CU.

+1
-1
-1
Anonymous posted on

ROTC is about education, too.

+1
+1
-1
Anonymous posted on

Right-wing radicals want to keep Columbia out of the military's leadership as much as leftist radicals want to keep ROTC out of Columbia.

+1
-5
-1
Anonymous posted on

Was there an exclusive pro-ROTC panel discussion with professors? Seems like Columbia is a "bubble" and a "safe haven" for anti-ROTC but not for those who risk their lives protecting the freedoms of those who live in this bubble. Eventually some of you will have to leave this bubble.

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

Not that I know of, but ROTC advocates had their own event, with professors, before the 2005 Senate vote. TRANSCRIPT: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/sen...

Interestingly, one of their panel speakers was now-deceased Professor Lewis Cole who opposed ROTC in 2005 and was a Columbia student leader against ROTC in 1969.

+1
-3
-1
Sean posted on

And we invited more from the anti-ROTC side, including Law Professor Kendall Thomas one of the participant of one of the Anti-ROTC teach-ins. Prof Cole (for whom I still hold GREAT respect) was the only one who agreed to come. We didn't want it to be a one-sided indoctrination event, like those teach-ins were. We wanted to have an honest discussion. Most on the other side did not.

I still have Prof. Thomas's response to our invitation, which had included a sincere offer that we would be willing to make common cause with the law students over the DADT issue :
"I find it hard to reconcile your call for a "debate" with the assertion that "most of you" would be willing to make "common cause" with the law students on the DADT issue. (You should know, by the way, that concern about the DADT question among Columbians is not limited to law students, or to the law school). A teach-in is being planned, which I believe will be a more productive use of the law school's resources, and its members' time."

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

I also loved how he called one of the professors who extended the invite a racist for saying Prof. Thomas's response/declination was uncalled for in order to short-circuit rational debate and smear the character of a man he had never met and had done him no wrong. A charge against which, of course, there is no defense. You can't prove you're not a racist. The two had never met, and the other professor did not know that Prof. Thomas is black. That was par for the course in 2005. Try to be civil and bridge the gap, only to have them spit back in your face. The ROTC opposition has 100% earned its disgraceful reputation.

Dear Professor ,

Your characterization of my e-mail as "arrogant" and your reference to my "erstwhile reputation for intellectual fairness" do not deserve the dignity of a response. Suffice it to say that this is not the first instance the exercise of my right to intellectual independence has led to the all too predictable, and thinly veiled racist charge of "arrogance" (a code word, of course, for "uppity").

+1
-3
-1
Anonymous posted on

I find it highly ironic, that a bunch of elitists, who have probably never done anything tangible in their entire, self centered life, are against military groups. The same mllitary, not the school, they go to, by the way, that gave them the right to act like total @$$ clowns. Try doing that in another country, and you would be drug out and beaten. The narrow mindedness of acedemia, onvce again rears it's ugly head.

+1
+1
-1
Anonymous posted on

Your coma use is putting me in a comma. Oh wait, that's not right...
But seriously great point. If we were so atmoneymoneyclownish in Sweden, there's no telling what would happen!

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

It amazes me how these Columbia haters are so similar to those who heckled at the town hall meeting. Same thing, except on the opposite side. When will people learn that it's valid to have opposing views, so long as you listen the other part respectfully? If you only took your time to get to know what Columbia really is, and what it stands for, you might have a different opinion, but you're probably not interested. "Don't confuse me with facts when I've already made up my mind." Isn't that it?

+1
+1
-1
Anonymous posted on

I understand standing up for your university, it has a great reputation and too many are being put in a bad light because of a few. The key part of your comment - respectfully - is what so many people are up in arms about. There was a lack of it in the town meeting and it was a Columbia sponsored event. It should have been handled better and hopefully in the future it will be. The difference here is it's a website, each one giving their opinion. The hecklers were interrupting someone that had the floor.

+1
+2
-1
Anonymous posted on

I'll be honest, when I first heard this story I was PISSED. I served in the same unit as Maschek. 1st BCT of the 10th Mountain Division. I was in Kirkuk at the time he was shot. Those of us who serve form very strong bonds among each other. Trust and teamwork are absolutely central, because your life depends on it. That is why so many of us take it a little personally when someone heckles or jeers (or whatever term you prefer) at someone who not only served, but took a lot of enemy rounds in the process.

I'm glad I didn't post the same day I heard about this story because my anger has had time to cool because I've been having a hard time finding and starting a civilian career despite decent qualifications. It's been one of those weeks where I think that nobody in this country has our back, despite the "Support Our Troops" magnets which festooned Americans' cars after the wars started. But I didn't know until reading the Spectator articles here that Columbia had more Veteran students than any other Ivy League school. That says something. "Deeds Above Words," runs the motto of one unit my father served in. Another way of saying, actions speak louder than words.

It's very isolating to be walking around in the civilian world as a new Veteran because you feel you have so LITTLE in common with anyone around you, and so very little connection. This feeling usually subsides as you begin to make those connections with work and classes and church or other community meetings, as you come to understand that while not everyone has been to a war zone, a lot of people have had some pretty serious crises in life and they CAN relate to hardship in general if not your experiences in particular. (A diagnosis of cancer for example, or the death of a loved one before his or her time.) This is called "re-integration." The danger is, re-integration can stall. If Veterans do not get job offers which match their qualifications (unemployment for recent combat Veterans is above 15%), if their loved ones reject them, if their views are shot down rather than listened to (not saying you have to agree, just hear us out), if they take on more schooling than they are ready for and fail at it. This scenario can intensify a Veteran's perception of isolation and it can push them to the point where they give up and drop out, as some of our Vietnam Veterans did. Just look out for the Veterans among you. They are used to someone always having their back, don't let them down.

Thanks for hearing me out.

+1
+1
-1
Anonymous posted on

It would be arrogant to say I understand you, because I'd need to be in your shoes in order to have the right to say so, but I'm sympathetic, and hope more people will understand that you deserve to be honored and welcomed. **hug**

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

Ruth Anne,

Thank you so much for posting this, and thank you for your service as well. I had a buddy I graduated high school with who was in the 10th Mountain too.

I am also a veteran. I served in the Navy for 8 1/2 years. I am also a student here at Columbia and was in attendance at the meeting where Anthony Maschek was heckled. Like you, I was seething with anger because of this and some of the other comments made by some of the more radical anti-ROTC people toward the end of the night. I was so angry by the close that I had a headache from high blood pressure for the rest of the night. I was even happy that the Post reported on it.

However, I was equally upset and dismayed at the completely overblown reaction by the media and those who so zealously follow those certain media outlets who simply used it as an excuse to bash the entire university and its student body. That same student body which contains myself, Mr. Maschek, and many many other intelligent and hardworking veterans who will be the future leaders of this country. These reports firstly so distorted the incident that it was almost unrecognizable to the one I actually witnessed, and secondly were completely disingenuous. Many of these "talking heads" couldn't care less about Anthony or any of us, they just wanted an excuse to take more digs at an institution which they feel is ideologically different than them.

I am so grateful for your particular post because it gives me hope that there are people out there that can read something in a news report and be able to sift through the ideological and subjective nonsense and see the truth. That truth being that Columbia University is a great place for veterans and has supported us in ways I never would have dreamed when I was making that apprehensive transition back to the civilian world. This is a very healthy environment for those of us who served our country and those few sad and vile people that did heckle him in no way represent what this university is actually about. I have been so consumed with all this nonsense and reading all of these hateful, ignorant, and inflammatory comments on every single article online addressing this issue that it is actually distracting me from things that are important and that matter. So I want to thank you, because now I can have peace and will no longer be wasting my time with this issue.

I wish you the very best and I hope you can find a career soon. You should even consider using that wonderful GI Bill and going to school, you will be welcomed with open arms I'm sure wherever you choose to go. On the contrary to what many people think, the young people I've met and developed friendships with here are very curious and open minded and excited to learn from your life experiences. Just know that you have my and any other veterans support. All the best to you and take care.

V/r

Robert Wintersteen
Petty Officer 1st Class
U.S. Navy

+1
+1
-1
Anonymous posted on

I've walked in your shoes. Been through the culture shock at the University of Oregon not exactly a haven for the ROTC (buildling was burnt down). Thankfully, the bad stuff will pass and you'll be a better student for it. All the best.

+1
+2
-1
Anonymous posted on

"We live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!"

+1
-5
-1
Anonymous posted on

That's the only part of that movie I am willing to watch again and again.

+1
+5
-1
Anonymous posted on

"Also, sorry, forgot..."I am happy to have members of the military in the class when they are there as students, that is, not as soldiers.”"

Sad commentary really one would think that a PROFFESOR no less would realize that it is possible to be both a student and a Soldier. Many are doing it in other college campuses all over the country, giving us one of the most educated militaries in the world. We have many "Soldiers" on active duty pursuing Bachelors and Masters degrees all over. In addition we have many college students (mostly in the field of medicine and nursing) using MILITARY facilities to earn their degrees, Brooke Army Medical Center, Walter Reed, Tripler just to name a few, if those in the military are to remain uneducated one wonders why many prestigious universities are using military facilities to train medical personnel in their degree programs.

It would seem that certain elements of the Columbia University system (namely the anthropology department) by their words would prefer to keep Soldiers uneducated and unschooled (since it is impossible it would seem to be both a student (educated) and a Soldier at the same time.

+1
0
-1
Anonymous posted on

“'The military does not exist to foster tolerance to people of different lifestyles, it serves to defend the nation,'” Blackmar said..."

Well, I swan! It's nice to hear somebody liberal take that position. So I guess student Blackmar is in favor of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." I know, I know, silly me...

+1
-1
-1
Anonymous posted on

Considering the lack of jobs, you would think that the current students/ future enemployed would be served by having the opportunity to seek employment with the military through their school - and officer slots are not what they used to be, getting a good commission is not as easy as it was 10 years ago. 'Cause if you think that all these winners at Columbia are getting good jobs upon graduation in the private sector, you are a little behind on current economic events.

+1
-1
-1
Anonymous posted on

What would Alexander Hamilton say?

+1
+1
-1
Anonymous posted on

Alex would start his own military officer program. (Not kidding, look it up.)

+1
-1
-1
Anonymous posted on

Please. The fact is, this is a controversial issue on campus and there are forums in which members of the community can debate it intelligently without the interference of dogmatic assholes sitting behind their computers who lack the reading comprehension or critical thinking to take look at an isolated incident in its proper context.

+1
-1
-1
Ed Turner posted on

Fact is: When people ridicule rudely anyone without respect whether they agree or not it is called impolite, ignorant and childish. Some folks just need to grow up. As far as being seen as anti-patriotic or having prejudiced towards the military. You bet the public sees it that way. It is one thing to stand for not wanting ROTC on campus but it's another thing in which that was handled like a "raged crowd". Animals are more respectful, polite and proper. This crowd set themselves up to look like terrorist supporters. I just hope the day never comes that these soooo enlightened individuals do not ever have to eat there own discourse. Maybe with the history of campus assaults with murderous gunmen these clowns should be more concerned about the screenings of who attends the campus.

+1
-2
-1
AceofJacks posted on

So it seems like everyone wants some information on what ROTC is. I am a cadet. I will not say who I am but I am almost through the program and want to give the basic deal of ROTC so that there is less misinformation.

One thing that those who oppose ROTC say is that it promotes militerism. That is true. No doubt, If you have a program you will see people in uniform, some of them will learn basic rifleman skills, they will learn how to march in formation, they will do push ups. They will go to Feild training events, probably at FT. Dix in New Jersey, or Camp smith just north of New York. These events will concentrate on Squad Tactical Exercises, where cadets will engage in a mock battle, it is meant as a leadership evaluation so that leadership skills can be assesed and nurtured. They will also do orienteering with a compass and map, attempting to find "points" out in the woods. A lot of times these exercises will also include Forward Operating Base operations and weapons maintenance training.

So Now that you know about some of the training, I want to spell out what it would mean for Columbia to have its own program. Because of the importance of the institution, They would probably get thier own program, not something to be taken lightly as many programs are being cut across the country, and that would mean the posting of a Cadre. It would consitiute 3-4 officers including a LTC, a handful of NCOs and a few vans. It would also mean that these cadre would attempt to recruit on campus and in local high schools. Note that just because you are issued a uniform and equipment, even if you have been there for years, you can walk out at any time before you 'contract' but in order to get a scholarship, you have to contract. I

If you really want to know the deal, contact your local ROTC unit and ask the cadre there, for NYC it is Fordham ROTC and Hofstra ROTC.

Also remember, if there ends up being no demand for ROTC at Columbia, the program will die on its own, no one is forced into the military at colleges, they choose to go. merely allowing it on campus is all that the university has to do in order to appease the pro military crowed.

+1
-1
-1
Anonymous posted on

I am getting real tired of overindulged children who aren't willing to die for anything mock or heckle men and women who are willing to die for our country. Oh, that's right, you're too good to fight for, let alone die for your country. Leave that to the poor. Right? When Jihad comes, the terrorists won't care how sympathetic you kids are to their cause, they'll kill you just the same. And who is willing to prevent that? That same military that you disdain.

US NAVY
1974-1980

+1
0
-1
Anonymous posted on

There is plenty to debate on what our civilian leadership does with our military. However, I think that a strong military is essential to national defense and that a strong military should have a strong officer corps. I think that is strengthens the officer corps to have graduates from various universities. An officer from Columbia would have a different perspective than an officer from West Point and that could only better our military.

+1
-2
-1
Anonymous posted on

The heckling of this wounded Soldier is just another example, in a very long list from Universities across the country that you can find if you look, of the level of hatred and bigotry that is being pushed on campuses. (especially ivy league campuses)
Perhaps those that run the universities, and teach, should focus more on spreading Intelligence and less on spreading Hate. At this point I believe professors can't help but push their hate onto their students, and some students are more receptive of it than others, as this heckler shows.

+1
0
-1
Anonymous posted on

I an in jrotc and not once have that asked me to be in the military it is a student led academics program and some people like the military feel so they join we do alot more than sit around and talk we do marksmanship orenyiring raider chalenges camping so take that to mind

+1
-2
-1
kmQRoycCP posted on

buy valium online no prescription cheap - can you buy valium over the counter

+1
-1
-1
mUzJdlnrp posted on

buying xanax online no prescription xanax side effects fetus - xanax effects when not prescribed

+1
0
-1
ZTfLGx posted on

tramadol generic buy tramadol from usa - tramadol 50mg generic for ultram

+1
0
-1
hmuzIYZij posted on

xanax buy xanax generic g3719 - xanax side effects on kidneys

+1
-1
-1
cHHYUqkdf posted on

buy valium with paypal 5mg valium enough - valium side effects erowid

+1
0
-1
eqsvr posted on

buy valium online clonazepam generic valium - buy valium online overnight delivery uk

+1
0
-1
CxtXjYGoo posted on

buy roche 10 valium valium effects birth control - valium effects fertility

+1
0
-1
FuxMrH posted on

buy tramadol online tramadol hcl 50 mg tablet high - is ordering tramadol online illegal

+1
0
-1
QQCplN posted on

buy generic tramadol tramadol er overdose - buy tramadol from trusted pharmacy

+1
0
-1
NtfoAxML posted on

xanax generic xanax effects yahoo answers - xanax for mild anxiety

+1
0
-1
SQIlDr posted on

tramadol online tramadol withdrawal depression - will get high tramadol

+1
+1
-1
amVoCw posted on

buy ambien online ambien cr horror stories - ambien drug forum

+1
0
-1
NpVjlzKO posted on

resource xanax 4 bars - order xanax mastercard

+1
0
-1
FEKBl posted on

buy valium online how much valium cost - street prices 10mg valium

+1
0
-1
WVFrrMim posted on

buy valium peach valium pill - buy valium brand

+1
0
-1
KJmBuJz posted on

buy tramadol cod online buy tramadol cheap no prescription - tramadol buy online usa

+1
-1
-1
BYWcSizG posted on

order valium buy valium no prescription uk - valium pill overdose

+1
0
-1
UZpvj posted on

buy valium diazepam like valium - valium no rx

+1
0
-1
OBkBN posted on

xanax online buy xanax online spain - xanax valium high

+1
0
-1
hFxBW posted on

valium online online pharmacy no prescription needed valium - buy blue valium online

+1
0
-1
VmLINc posted on

Check This Out valium online pharmacy no prescription - order valium online no prescription

+1
0
-1
VxxwHPKy posted on

buy valium online online valium no prescription - generic valium pill identifier

+1
0
-1
lYEZMhzs posted on

buy valium where can i buy valium online - valium names

+1
0
-1
azUQgcwJ posted on

buy valium online valium dosage in kids - effects of valium 10mg

+1
+1
-1
wzAYMzQN posted on

buy valium online uk forum 10mg valium equal mg xanax - valium 10mg blue

+1
+1
-1
YcFJtwla posted on

order valium online buy valium by roche online - valium online with mastercard

+1
-1
-1
DfUJimKs posted on

Learn More ultram kidney - ultram maximum daily dosage

+1
-1
-1
ubAOC posted on

read here will 2mg xanax do - xanax overdose renal failure

+1
0
-1
ejyoN posted on

visit generic ambien cr 12.5 - ambien side effects back pain

+1
+1
-1
TDzJopq posted on

redirected 001webs com buy tramadol online - tramadol 50 mg with ibuprofen

+1
0
-1
ZeOaR posted on

sites ambien cr rooster - ambien sleep driving defense

+1
0
-1
VAJrfoY posted on

blog tramadol for dogs dosage usa - buy tramadol online saturday delivery

+1
0
-1
MabZum posted on

this website generic cialis at walmart - cialis generic date

+1
0
-1
EgfnUGi posted on

check this out order tramadol online with cod - tramadol hcl 50 mg tablets

+1
0
-1
jHJfX posted on

Anchor ambien side effects forum - ambien and alcohol symptoms

+1
+1
-1
cKTykj posted on

helpful hints 90 mg ambien - ambien cost cvs

+1
0
-1
KrxhEG posted on

click for source ambien cr kidneys - buy ambien cr mexico

+1
0
-1
IKujs posted on

ativan online medicine lorazepam 1mg - ativan no rx

+1
-1
-1
CKNSBL posted on

Read More order ambien cr from canada - sales of ambien

+1
0
-1
JjpSlpGj posted on

this ultram side effects - ultram 93 58

+1
0
-1
TMAOTV posted on

generic ambien ambien side effects erectile - buy ambien cr cheap

+1
0
-1
KNkyG posted on

xanax price 3mg xanax online - xanax bars red

+1
0
-1
JhQpf posted on

webpage tips pass drug test xanax - xanax for social anxiety blushing

+1
+1
-1
NJRQA posted on

buy xanax what is xanax for - ativan vs xanax for anxiety

+1
0
-1
edwlPinT posted on

buy valium roche online valium cost per pill - valium sale bulk

+1
0
-1
JXpvb posted on

go to website buy modafinil online usa - provigil modafinil weight loss

+1
0
-1
wblHT posted on

provigil online nuvigil vs provigil price - provigil dose forms

+1
0
-1
NqvWL posted on

web klonopin and drinking alcohol - effective klonopin dosage

+1
0
-1
DodNBWvBX posted on

tramadol overnight shipping do people buy tramadol - tramadol withdrawal weight gain

+1
0
-1
bbfvE posted on

order xanax online xanax bars canada - little white xanax pills

+1
0
-1
oFbvD posted on

Our site xanax bars lil wayne - xanax high on

+1
0
-1
kBbQX posted on

Continue xanax bars lil wyte - pictures generic xanax 1mg

+1
0
-1
WcwCnDDU posted on

helpful resources tramadol 50 mg can you get high - tramadol ketorolaco

+1
0
-1
hYGYAxab posted on

buy tramadol tramadol hcl 50 mg tab amn - cheap tramadol overnight

+1
0
-1
yYjznKrk posted on

tramadol 50 tramadol (ultram) must be used with caution in persons with - tramadol ultram er

+1
0
-1
EnMiq posted on

see page tramadol experiences - tramadol saturday delivery no prescription

+1
0
-1
ZEAQz posted on

site buy tramadol 50mg - buy tramadol faq

+1
0
-1